why wont this work?

[resident_genius]

i dont understand why this isnt as effecient of an electrolyser as the best of them.....evenly spaced plates, in a "common bath" as i call it, the number of plates kicks down the voltage between them, i dont understand why there would be any "leaks" as far as electricity. one of the laws of electricity is that it always takes the path of least resistance, and since water isnt very conductive, thats why we add our chemicals, to raise its conductivity. with that said, that would lead me to beleive that the flow of electricity wouldnt skip or jump from the first plate to the last plate, (or any in between) simply because there is a conductive plate so much closer to the first plate than the last.....there has to be a lesser amount of resistance between two of those plates than if it were to say jump from the first plate to the last and be directly "skipping" the rest. maybe someone more intelligent can inform me as to why?

below is a diagram i made up using my superior MS paint skills.

[eco]

If you need efficiency you mast make multicell electrolyser.On diagram is one cell electrolyser.

[resident_genius]

well, "my design" (or should i say "this design") is a multi cell configuration in a common, unseperated bath of electrolyte.....my theory is that since electricity has to flow from one side to another, and always takes the path of least resistance, it will jump in from one plate to the next, since the electrolyte is a poorer conductor than the stainless. i figure that if the plates were spaced 1/4" apart, and the first and last plates were 2 inches apart (total of 9 plates), that the resistance between the plates @ 1/4" would be X, and even in series, X would still be less than the resistance of the electrolyte if the electricity were to flow from plate 1 to plate 9, at a distance of 2".

see where i'm going with this?

[eco]

You wrote "it will jump in from one plate to the next",yes true,but electricity jump over plates too.That means every cell must have own electrolyte (multicell design)

[chemelec]

[resident_genius]

[truckdoctor]

[chemelec]

truckdoctor, His cell is shown correctly and it uses nylon bolts.

Current Flows through the electrolyte solution to Energise all the plates between the two outer , plus an minus plates.

In Theory this gives a Equil Potential difference on all plates.
( Except for the small amount of current that goes around the plates from the edges.)

resident_genius, I would recommend a Small spacing between plates. Definately less the 1/4 inch.
I find about .05 to .1 inch as being pretty good.

Most Junk Yards can supply you with Stainless Steel, Maybe not the best quality, but good enough for just playing with it and getting some initial Experience.

[Chris]

Resident,

You're wasting your time on this design and will waste a lot of money building an expensive prototype if you try it. I recommend first building a FREE 3 minute test aparatus to prove to you why it's a flawed idea.

You just need 3 paper-clips and a 9v battery. Connect one paper-clip to each of your battery terminals (use anything like aligator clips or plain wire to do this). Now take a small piece of wax or a wad of chewing gum ...something non-conductive and push your paper clips into the medium a little bit so they are held securely about 1/4 inch apart. Now in between them put your 3rd paper-clip. Your paper-clips are now 1/8th inch apart from each other and you have replicated identically your cell design. You've more importantly done this in about 5 minutes for FREE.

It always amazes me how people propose stuff and then can't take the extra 10 seconds to test it themselves. They come to the conclusion that they simply can't replicate or test their design because they don't have money or equipment to do so. What they fail to remember is that there are MANY ways to test something if they just put an ounce of creative thinking into the problem.

I hope this little test does 2 things. 1: shows you that your design will not work as you had hoped. 2: shows you that you probably have the means to do real science if you just think creatively.

Hell thinking creatively and coming up with unique solutions to difficult problems is what I LIVE FOR!!! -Dude that's the whole point of basement workshops! To do something that others never believed could be done in one's home with simple equipment. Come on now!

I've been trying to get people to think outside of the box for years now. I guess it's easier to speculate and theorize without getting your hands dirty, then it is to break out the chewing gum and paper-clips.

I will leave you to describe to the group WHY this design fails to perform as you expected. I could do that for you but it would take the fun out of you seeing the results of your design for yourself.

You've been given a key, are you going to use it and get your hands a little dirty (sticky)? Please let us know what you find.

Chemelec aparently needs to hear the results of this as well since he's convinced it will work

Oh and for the quick answer on how I KNOW it will fail... I tried it myself long ago Except I took it a step further and was testing to see if a neutral center plate (or plates) would increase a submerged cell's efficiency.

[Chris]

After re-reading my post I may have sounded like I WANTED your design to fail or that I was hoping it would. -Not so ...in fact I never hope that people's ideas fail.

It's just that I didn't want to see you waste money on something that you can test for FREE and do it almost instantly.

We have to TEST and try things for ourselves. You have to build this (the free version) simply because you owe it to the group for us taking the time to answer you. It will help you to better see and understand the problem and it will let you test design modifications.

That is the point of failing... to see a way that something did NOT work. It helps you to try something different to finally find something that DOES work -Get it?!

So I am not happy (if I sounded like I was) that it will fail. I'm happy that it will help to show you how to test your ideas for FREE and quickly. And I'm happy that it will help you to better understand the problem and come up with ways to FIX those problems.

[resident_genius]

chris, i'm glad you cleared this up for me, so i didnt waste my time.

although i feel maybe you were coming off a tad condescending, i cant blame you for the typical frustrations of the internet "theorizers", i used to get them all the time with other applications (mostly turbocharged gasoline engine applications.)

a few things i may say to my own defense is that 1) i'm on my fifth prototype, so i've built them and melted them, cut them apart and picked them apart. melted wires and varied electrolyte mixtures, tried different metals for electrodes and such. i've got no problem with getting my hands dirty, but 2) if i could simply ask a question to something thats been tried and proven or disproven, why not simply ask, and ask why? i'm certainly not lazy, but i fear i do have that italian disease......mahfundzalow.

[resident_genius]

ah, i see now. nevermind, i dont think you were being condescending at all then.

[Chris]

Asking is no problem, but when it's something so very simple to test would it not be better to ask in this way...

"I've built this design and am baffled by the way my center plates have no production. Why would this be the case when I think that it should do this..."

Now you've shown the group that you at least tried your idea even if just a simple test. You see it does or does not work and you then ask for help on why it's doing something.

If a setup as simple as this can't elicite some "dirty hands" on your part then that is what I was a bit "rough on you" about.

I was trying to give you a little kick in the pants that I felt you needed. Some of your best teachers in school were probably the ones that were toughest on you ...right?

Learn from good advice, don't be offended by it... or be offended by it but come back swinging!

[resident_genius]

haha good show, i totally concur!

unfortunately, i have difficulty thinking "outside the box" whilst thinking "outside the box"- such as replicating this easily with wax and paperclips and a 9 volt, i suppose i'm a tad short-sighted there!

[FarrahDay]