Low energy Input, mass hydrogen output methods in use.

[BEMET]

Try dropping your gyp into some carbonated water (carbonic acid). My first try was last night. It was a very crude set up and bubbles stuck to the container. No electrolysis was applied or plates in the fluid. I haven't tested the bubbles yet.

Lance

[AlaskaStar]

[BEMET]

[Loster]

[Orange_Crusader]

[chrissnz]

[chrissnz]

[thrival]

Hi Chrissnz:

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'm gonna try to put my head inside AlaskaStar's for a moment, to say I think when he said to look at the Edison battery, he wasn't meaning so much the actual materials, but "why it didn't work," i.e. that they tended to offgas too much, which in our case is what we want.

Now I'm leaving his head, and forgetting about his methods for just a moment.

If you look at page 532 in General Chemistry by Linus Pauling, you'll see a graph of some common metals and elements and their electron potentials. As you noticed, F is way negative, between -2.5 & -3. Now notice that Ca is just as far positive, and Mg is close enough, about 2.25+ to 2.30+.

If I'm not mistaken, with an electrolyte that should make a cell of 5 - 6 volts.

We know when sulfuric acid attacks a metal, we get hydrogen. (Anyone with actual chemistry experience, feel free to jump right in.) So we should get Ferrous sulfate and calcium sulfate by adding sulfuric acid to either or both metals. Since both are so close to equal and opposite values from the zero line, it should only take half as much energy to regenerate one side or the other with current.

Let's build a polycarbonate box with an ionic membrane separating the box into two compartments. Lets put calcium oxide in one side and iron oxide in the other. May as well insert a couple stainless-steel electrodes/plates as contact points, one in each side.

OK, add sulfuric acid. Woo-hoo. Lots of hydrogen. Let's save that, and also extract current from the cell that's self-generating while the reaction is happening. Let's save that current in a rechargeable battery.

Now we have calcium sulfate and ferrous sulfate. OK, we can run current either way to regenerate the respective metals, while oxidizing the other.

Now all we have to do is turn the current off and the acid starts to eat the regenerated metal and make more hydrogen. While this is happening, more electricity is being generated too. SAVE THAT, and reuse that electrical energy to keep repeating the cycle indefinitely. Or you can have two boxes, one using the electricy being generated to regenerate the other, back and forth. Oh, almost forgot to mention; you'll need to add more water periodically.

If someone out there has chemistry background, I'd like to know why this won't work. Thanks.

[AlaskaStar]

[thrival]

Dear AlaskaStar:

Thank you for the kudos and the clues!

FYI, I've a circuit that makes unlimited power.
Did you know the whole EM spectrum is
regenerative? Haven't built it yet but two
Ph.d's looked at it and can't tell me why
it won't work. (Not for discussion on this
board.)

You should never be sick-- fasting, minerals
and colloidal silver (make it in dilute H202)
cures everything, even AIDS.

See chinese medicine for the kidneys and
preserving jin/chi. Can you say ORME's?

[skibum13]

THRIVAL ROCKS!!

Doing some research on the chemicals required, here's what I've found:

Calcium Oxide (also called quicklime)
CAS Number: 1305-78-8
eBay: 100 grams for $3.99
Gallade Chemicals: 1kg for $87.00

Iron Oxide (I believe it's Iron(II) Oxide; used in thermite; harder to find)
CAS Number: 1345-25-1
eBay: 100 grams for $3.99
Gallade Chemicals: N/A

Sulfuric Acid (I'm pretty sure this is available off-the-shelf at any hardware shop)

I did a Wiki on "ionic membrane", but didn't get anything. I'm not sure if this is the same as the membrane used to seperate H and O (such as Nafion) or if this is something else. Thrival, care to fill us in?

I'm assuming I could just put some of the Calcium Oxide powder in one compartment and some Iron Oxide in the other. Then I would add sulphuric acid to both compartments, which will cause the reaction to start and hydrogen being released. Once the reaction is complete, the Calcium Oxide will have turned into Calcium Sulfate and the Iron Oxide into Iron Sulfate. I'm assuming both are dissolved in the solution, but remain seperated by the ionic membrane (I'm guessing that's the purpose of the ionic membrane).

Now, by adding the SS plates in the solutions, there is electricity to be captured during the reaction. And if electricity is applied to those SS plates, does the reaction reverse? I'm not sure I understand what AlaskaStar means by 'DRAWING power will generate hydrogen'.

And the other piece is where does water come in? Is there water in the compartments to begin with? Or does the water come from the sulfuric acid solution (since it's probably like a 10% solution)? Do the oxides dissolve in the water or do they remain as solids until the sulfuric acid is added?

Unless Thrival has done some experimentation already or AlaskaStar is willing to give us some proportions, we will have to figure them out for ourselves. I'm going to assume the water comes from the sulfuric acid solution. We'll need to figure out the best sulfuric acid solution mixture and try to maintain that (since AlaskaStar said we will need to add water eventually). It seems like it makes the most sense to have the sulfuric acid solution already in the compartments, then just add an amount of the oxide to the solution. Then we could meter the grams of oxide per mL of sulfuric acid solution.

The other piece I'm a little lost on, is the surface area issue AlaskaStar mentioned many times. At least one of the components/ingredients is supposed to look like a heatsink. If the oxides change from solids to being dissolved in the acid solution, then it doesn't makes sense for the oxides to be shaped like a heatsink (not to mention it's probably a pain in the ass to make them into that shape in the first place). The only other solid is the SS plates. Are those supposed to have maximum surface area?

Before I order the Iron Oxide and Calcium Oxide to begin experimenting, I would like somebody else to confirm that I have identified the correct compounds above; specifically Iron(II) oxide over Iron(III) oxide. I'm assuming there's an easier, cheaper way to obtain those two oxides (feel free to let everybody else know), but for inital experimentation, I think it makes more sense to minimize the unknowns and use high quality compounds to start.

I'd have to say, this is pretty damn exciting! Thanks again Thrival (and AlaskaStar) for figuring out the hard part.

[thrival]

skibum13:

I wouldn't spend so much on pure stuff. I bought CaOx at ACE Hardware (it's called "Yardright Multi-purpose quicklime), 25lbs. for about $12 bucks.

As we all know, iron oxide is simply rust. Has to be a cheaper source. Scrap yards? Just realized something; the ultimate goal chemical is iron sulfate. You can probably buy that directly, just like you can buy calcium sulfate (gypsum powder/plaster of paris) or you can make your own iron sulfate by mixing iron filings with the acid. Since steel is mostly iron, lathe waste might work.

Surface area are the powders themselves, altho more ss plates (like Chris's boxes) in respective compartments will be in contact with the powders, and therfore able to carry more current. (SS has it's own internal resistance.)

If you're using oxides you need to mix the acid with water. It's the water that makes H2 & O. How much acid will determine the speed of your reaction. I'd read up on other people's experiments to get an idea. 10% acid seems a good place to start. If you're using sulfates the acid reaction has already happened so all you need to add is water.

You will be running applied current from a battery during one half-cycle, so no hydrogen or free electricity then; rather that's when you regenerate the metal electrodes from sulfate. The metal regenerates and the sulfate turns back to acid. (Both of these actions are part of Linnard Griffin's patents. Someone posted those and they deserve credit. Others suggested calcium sulfate and you deserve credit too.)

When the metal is fully regenerated, you turn your applied current OFF. THAT'S when you get hydrogen AND current back, at least as much as you put in.

I don't know much about ionic membranes, only that they exist. University chemlabs should know and be able to turn you on to a source for reasonable price.

[JaEnergy]

[thrival]

[AntDavison]