decisive:
Ever notice how sci-fi shows like star-trek, stargate SG1 etc.,
leave out any mention of a Creator? I just can't get excited
about their super-gadgetry anymore. The military gags and with-holds
practical stuff that would make our lives better, for fear it might be
'missused' / fall into 'enemy' hands, or just cut into profits. Peace
frightens them to the core. I'm thinking all this preoccupation with gadget-
tech entrains us into perceptions leading away from the fundamental
reality, that the universe is moral, friendly, and populated by Beings
worthwhile to discover, who have and are willing to share information,
and with powers the Pentagon can't even imagine, much less control.
Star-ship troopers should find no welcome place to export their discord.
Some of us would like nothing more than to live ordinary lives with a
semblance of joy, and pass quietly into the boundless of our Maker, not
serve or fight for some lockstep military-industrial complex. What's the
point of limitless power if adherence to a false philosophy keeps one an
idiot, to arrive at alpha centauri, but not one's sanity. OU, for what
purpose?! Thou shalt not murder! Does it get any plainer than that?
Sorry for wandering so far off topic!
Was Joe Cell now Off Topic... Again
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Was Joe Cell now Off Topic... Again
by thrival » Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:04 pm
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by decisive » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:25 am
Thrival,
I understand exactly how you feel, but don’t worry my friend, for indeed it’s true, WE ARE ALL CONNECTED, and we must have faith in the goodness of mankind. If you want to feel this wholeness in spirit, go read first part of the Declaration of Independence.
I am being dead SERIOUS here! I bet must people reading this haven’t read it since elementary school, but it will MOVE you I promise. We are much larger a FORCE if realized than “the powers that be” would have us believe. And we are all intrinsically and collectively much STRONGER when we all realize that we are a “wholeness undivided”. The problem is that we have been deceived into believing in a fragmented world view and must STOP now.
I was raised as a southern Baptist, but I realized early on that our spiritual existence is actually much broader in scope than the orthodox Christian reality allows. I was much more interested in connecting with this source of spirituality by going on a nature hike with friends, picking up arrowheads with my grandfather on his farm, going fishing, or going surfing. But even then I was always seeking more knowledge in an effort to understand the purpose of our existence.
Then I found the writings of Joseph Campbell, who was perhaps the world’s greatest authority on the mythology of world religions. It all becomes very clear in his writings that all the world’s religion’s share common mythologies and there is a “wholeness” that goes beyond all the borders of religious and SCIENTIFIC dogma in our respect cultures.
Then, if you read the works of Rupert Sheldrake “The Rebirth of Nature” and David Bohm’s “Science, Order and Creativity” you will begin to understand very clearly how our current "concenscious trance" has come into existence by learning how organized religion and orthodox science have ALWAYS been intertwined in such a way to keep true meaning and knowledge out of the hands of the masses.
These works are not some hooky “New Age” or “Scientology” bullsh*t, but rather two very mainstream scientists who have broken free of the “Matrix” so to speak and have given us an alternate perception of reality which allows each and everyone us to experience GOD directly. Carl Sagan was also a very spiritual person though most did not know that until after his death.
[BTW, go see movie “V for Vendetta” written by the same brothers who wrote the Matrix. Symbolism of undivided wholeness is very much conveyed in that film, without the need of an old gray haired man sitting in heaven making authoritative decisions for the “Good” of us or making us promises that the afterlife is better than our lives here on mother Earth.]
Also, I would argue that there is one science fiction series which does emphasize spirituality and the good of man and that is Star Wars and this was no accident. George Lukas was obsessed with the writings of Campbell and so he filled these movies with all the core archetypes and mythologies of man. Ironically, the last film, very effectively reminded us of our current state of affairs here in our country where we are losing our fundamental rights on a daily basis.
Why are people in science so spooked by the concept of “spirit?” The word in most cultures (eg Hebrew and American Indian) used to describe spirit, use the meaning of wind. What is wind? Mysterious flowing movement that is intrinsically invisible to us except in its action on material objects (eg wind blowing the leaves and branches of a tree). That’s it…it is simple acknowledgement that there are unseen forces which are there for us to explore and learn more about. Much, much, more!!! Science is not dead, its only in hibernation…
Our existence and our experience are so pervasively infused with spirituality that we are simply blind to it. The easiest analogy of thinking about relationship between spirit and matter and how they represent undivided wholeness (or each side of the same coin) is to consider the meaning of a song. What is a song? Ask a Physicist? Can s/he explaining it to you?
A song is a waveform or thought-form that can be stored in any number of different material media such as CD, a Record, a Tape, a Hard drive, a MP3 file, etc. Yet, ultimately it remains IREDUCABLY a song. Nothing about the particular material aspects of an atom in a CD or record will give you any information or knowledge regarding the origin or purpose of a song. We are all uniquely and individually just like a song.
Science, Spirituality, and the Present World Crisis
DAVID BOHM
Many thousands of years ago, our culture was not broken into fragments as it is now. At that time, science and spirituality were no separated. Since then, they have grown far apart. In my view, it is important to bring them together.
I will begin by discussing science. Science is basically an abstract sort of knowledge, systematically and rationally organized, aimed at grasping what is general and what is necessary. Newton's laws provide one of the ideal forms of such knowledge. Science is also a collective activity and through it people work together to build up a common body of experimentally tested knowledge over time. Science would not mean much without this activity.
However, science has in it certain features, such as wonder and curiosity that go beyond knowledge. And it has an additional feature that is crucial. Science, when done properly, acknowledges a fact whether we like it or not that is, whether it agrees with our deeply held beliefs or not. This openness to acknowledging facts is seldom the case more generally. For example, one would not get very far that way in politics, or in most religious organizations.
Such an insistence on a certain kind of honesty is the key point of what I call the scientific spirit. This is the principle that infuses scientific activity. Thus, the very way science has developed has implicitly considerable spiritual significance. It would indeed be extraordinary if this spirit could prevail in the whole of life. I think it would remove a considerable part of our problems.
This brings us to the question of spirituality. What is spirit? The word is derived from a Latin word meaning "breath" or "wind" (like respiration or inspiration). It is suggested by the trees moving with the invisible force of the wind. We may thus think of spirit as an invisible force -- a life-giving essence that moves us deeply, or as a source that moves everything from within.
Spirit is, therefore, not manifest. The word manifest means literally in Latin "what can be held in the hand." You cannot hold spirit in the hand. It is subtle, which is really the opposite of manifest. According to my dictionary, the word subtle means "highly refined, delicate, elusive, indefinable." The Latin root of the word is subtexlis, meaning finely woven. We can picture finer and finer nets to grasp reality, but ultimately spirit is so subtle that it passes through all of them. Although unseen and ungraspable, it is of key importance.
One important point that we connect with spirit is meaning. According to my dictionary, the word meaning has three definitions: significance, value, and purpose. Significance is simply like a sign that points to something. Value has the same root as valor and valiant and means strong. We sense the value of something by being strongly moved. We could further say that if something is very significant, we, sense its value and that generates a strong purpose.
These three are key features of life. Life would have little value if it lacked meaning, for then it would lack significance, and we would generate little energy or purpose. Therefore, spirit, although its meaning may be very subtle or ungraspable, seems to have a tremendous effect. We could, indeed, say that without significance, value, and purpose, life would have little point. A sense of pointlessness or meaninglessness in our society may be at the root of much of its current malaise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheldrake’s, “The Rebirth of Nature” is a simply written, quite readable historical overview of human philosophical conceptions of, and ways of interacting with, the earth. Sheldrake sees humanity as having "progressed" from an early and long-lasting stage where animistic beliefs prevailed, through three centuries of a Cartesian mechanistic view of the earth (Descartes "doctrine that plants and animals were machines furthered his explicit aim of making men 'lords and possessors of nature,'" [p. 52], and Francis Bacon's invitation to a "scientific priesthood" to make decisions regarding how the earth should be treated), through late-20th century attempts to reestablish a newly conceived animism, of sorts.
I understand exactly how you feel, but don’t worry my friend, for indeed it’s true, WE ARE ALL CONNECTED, and we must have faith in the goodness of mankind. If you want to feel this wholeness in spirit, go read first part of the Declaration of Independence.
I am being dead SERIOUS here! I bet must people reading this haven’t read it since elementary school, but it will MOVE you I promise. We are much larger a FORCE if realized than “the powers that be” would have us believe. And we are all intrinsically and collectively much STRONGER when we all realize that we are a “wholeness undivided”. The problem is that we have been deceived into believing in a fragmented world view and must STOP now.
I was raised as a southern Baptist, but I realized early on that our spiritual existence is actually much broader in scope than the orthodox Christian reality allows. I was much more interested in connecting with this source of spirituality by going on a nature hike with friends, picking up arrowheads with my grandfather on his farm, going fishing, or going surfing. But even then I was always seeking more knowledge in an effort to understand the purpose of our existence.
Then I found the writings of Joseph Campbell, who was perhaps the world’s greatest authority on the mythology of world religions. It all becomes very clear in his writings that all the world’s religion’s share common mythologies and there is a “wholeness” that goes beyond all the borders of religious and SCIENTIFIC dogma in our respect cultures.
Then, if you read the works of Rupert Sheldrake “The Rebirth of Nature” and David Bohm’s “Science, Order and Creativity” you will begin to understand very clearly how our current "concenscious trance" has come into existence by learning how organized religion and orthodox science have ALWAYS been intertwined in such a way to keep true meaning and knowledge out of the hands of the masses.
These works are not some hooky “New Age” or “Scientology” bullsh*t, but rather two very mainstream scientists who have broken free of the “Matrix” so to speak and have given us an alternate perception of reality which allows each and everyone us to experience GOD directly. Carl Sagan was also a very spiritual person though most did not know that until after his death.
[BTW, go see movie “V for Vendetta” written by the same brothers who wrote the Matrix. Symbolism of undivided wholeness is very much conveyed in that film, without the need of an old gray haired man sitting in heaven making authoritative decisions for the “Good” of us or making us promises that the afterlife is better than our lives here on mother Earth.]
Also, I would argue that there is one science fiction series which does emphasize spirituality and the good of man and that is Star Wars and this was no accident. George Lukas was obsessed with the writings of Campbell and so he filled these movies with all the core archetypes and mythologies of man. Ironically, the last film, very effectively reminded us of our current state of affairs here in our country where we are losing our fundamental rights on a daily basis.
Why are people in science so spooked by the concept of “spirit?” The word in most cultures (eg Hebrew and American Indian) used to describe spirit, use the meaning of wind. What is wind? Mysterious flowing movement that is intrinsically invisible to us except in its action on material objects (eg wind blowing the leaves and branches of a tree). That’s it…it is simple acknowledgement that there are unseen forces which are there for us to explore and learn more about. Much, much, more!!! Science is not dead, its only in hibernation…
Our existence and our experience are so pervasively infused with spirituality that we are simply blind to it. The easiest analogy of thinking about relationship between spirit and matter and how they represent undivided wholeness (or each side of the same coin) is to consider the meaning of a song. What is a song? Ask a Physicist? Can s/he explaining it to you?
A song is a waveform or thought-form that can be stored in any number of different material media such as CD, a Record, a Tape, a Hard drive, a MP3 file, etc. Yet, ultimately it remains IREDUCABLY a song. Nothing about the particular material aspects of an atom in a CD or record will give you any information or knowledge regarding the origin or purpose of a song. We are all uniquely and individually just like a song.
Science, Spirituality, and the Present World Crisis
DAVID BOHM
Many thousands of years ago, our culture was not broken into fragments as it is now. At that time, science and spirituality were no separated. Since then, they have grown far apart. In my view, it is important to bring them together.
I will begin by discussing science. Science is basically an abstract sort of knowledge, systematically and rationally organized, aimed at grasping what is general and what is necessary. Newton's laws provide one of the ideal forms of such knowledge. Science is also a collective activity and through it people work together to build up a common body of experimentally tested knowledge over time. Science would not mean much without this activity.
However, science has in it certain features, such as wonder and curiosity that go beyond knowledge. And it has an additional feature that is crucial. Science, when done properly, acknowledges a fact whether we like it or not that is, whether it agrees with our deeply held beliefs or not. This openness to acknowledging facts is seldom the case more generally. For example, one would not get very far that way in politics, or in most religious organizations.
Such an insistence on a certain kind of honesty is the key point of what I call the scientific spirit. This is the principle that infuses scientific activity. Thus, the very way science has developed has implicitly considerable spiritual significance. It would indeed be extraordinary if this spirit could prevail in the whole of life. I think it would remove a considerable part of our problems.
This brings us to the question of spirituality. What is spirit? The word is derived from a Latin word meaning "breath" or "wind" (like respiration or inspiration). It is suggested by the trees moving with the invisible force of the wind. We may thus think of spirit as an invisible force -- a life-giving essence that moves us deeply, or as a source that moves everything from within.
Spirit is, therefore, not manifest. The word manifest means literally in Latin "what can be held in the hand." You cannot hold spirit in the hand. It is subtle, which is really the opposite of manifest. According to my dictionary, the word subtle means "highly refined, delicate, elusive, indefinable." The Latin root of the word is subtexlis, meaning finely woven. We can picture finer and finer nets to grasp reality, but ultimately spirit is so subtle that it passes through all of them. Although unseen and ungraspable, it is of key importance.
One important point that we connect with spirit is meaning. According to my dictionary, the word meaning has three definitions: significance, value, and purpose. Significance is simply like a sign that points to something. Value has the same root as valor and valiant and means strong. We sense the value of something by being strongly moved. We could further say that if something is very significant, we, sense its value and that generates a strong purpose.
These three are key features of life. Life would have little value if it lacked meaning, for then it would lack significance, and we would generate little energy or purpose. Therefore, spirit, although its meaning may be very subtle or ungraspable, seems to have a tremendous effect. We could, indeed, say that without significance, value, and purpose, life would have little point. A sense of pointlessness or meaninglessness in our society may be at the root of much of its current malaise.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sheldrake’s, “The Rebirth of Nature” is a simply written, quite readable historical overview of human philosophical conceptions of, and ways of interacting with, the earth. Sheldrake sees humanity as having "progressed" from an early and long-lasting stage where animistic beliefs prevailed, through three centuries of a Cartesian mechanistic view of the earth (Descartes "doctrine that plants and animals were machines furthered his explicit aim of making men 'lords and possessors of nature,'" [p. 52], and Francis Bacon's invitation to a "scientific priesthood" to make decisions regarding how the earth should be treated), through late-20th century attempts to reestablish a newly conceived animism, of sorts.
"The ability to perceive or think differently is more important than the knowledge gained"
David Bohm
David Bohm
- decisive
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- Location: tampa, Fl
"Consensus Trance"
by decisive » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:47 am
My apologies for going way off topic in my last post. I just want people to realize that it is OK to break free from the "Consensus Trance" when learning about these OU topics such as the Joe Cell. I believe the Wachowski brothers used the Matrix in their movie as analogy to what Tart describes as the "Consensus Trance"
However, I realize now that I misspelled "Consensus Trance" in my previous posts.
here is the definition:
Charley Tart on "Consensus Trance"
July 5th, 2006
By Howard Rheingold
States of consciousness, from altered states to the state humans call “normal waking consciousness,” have been Charley Tart’s specialty for two decades. Surprisingly, Dr. Tart no longer calls it “normal consciousness,” and has substituted what he feels to be a more accurate term: consensus trance. To him, the idea of “normal consciousness” is the kind of convenient fiction illustrated by the famous folktale of “the emperor’s new clothes.” Together, human groups agree on which of their perceptions should be admitted to awareness (hence, consensus), then they train each other to see the world in that way and only in that way (hence trance).
However, I realize now that I misspelled "Consensus Trance" in my previous posts.
here is the definition:
Charley Tart on "Consensus Trance"
July 5th, 2006
By Howard Rheingold
States of consciousness, from altered states to the state humans call “normal waking consciousness,” have been Charley Tart’s specialty for two decades. Surprisingly, Dr. Tart no longer calls it “normal consciousness,” and has substituted what he feels to be a more accurate term: consensus trance. To him, the idea of “normal consciousness” is the kind of convenient fiction illustrated by the famous folktale of “the emperor’s new clothes.” Together, human groups agree on which of their perceptions should be admitted to awareness (hence, consensus), then they train each other to see the world in that way and only in that way (hence trance).
"The ability to perceive or think differently is more important than the knowledge gained"
David Bohm
David Bohm
- decisive
- Regular Poster
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 9:31 am
- Location: tampa, Fl
by thrival » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:23 am
decisive:
Great post, well put. Have you authored any books?
Yes I'm all for discovering truth, spirit, God, first-hand. Some mainstream
religions would have us believe it's allready been done for us,
but if that were true, there would be no need for Asking, Seeking or
Knocking. Anyway no one ever ascended on another person's coat-tails.
My interest in tech has always been first and foremost, to prove (to
myself) that miracles are possible, in fact happening all around us
all the time. The kingdom of heaven has always been "at hand"
whenever we're ready, willing and able to wake up to it, and commit
to the process.
Yes the way "they" 've been able to compartmentalize us in our
thinking and limit our awareness of our fundamental connectedness,
with each other, and the cosmos, is the (mental) condition to be
overcome. I've noticed that even otherwise normal appearing
people start to freak out when a mind starts to drift toward
the outer fringes of human knowledge. It's like they feel really
threatened and need to prevent you from going there, for fear
of what you might discover, i.e. that their impoverished world
views are a gross and imposed lie (like that's some big secret
or something.)
peace out.
Great post, well put. Have you authored any books?
Yes I'm all for discovering truth, spirit, God, first-hand. Some mainstream
religions would have us believe it's allready been done for us,
but if that were true, there would be no need for Asking, Seeking or
Knocking. Anyway no one ever ascended on another person's coat-tails.
My interest in tech has always been first and foremost, to prove (to
myself) that miracles are possible, in fact happening all around us
all the time. The kingdom of heaven has always been "at hand"
whenever we're ready, willing and able to wake up to it, and commit
to the process.
Yes the way "they" 've been able to compartmentalize us in our
thinking and limit our awareness of our fundamental connectedness,
with each other, and the cosmos, is the (mental) condition to be
overcome. I've noticed that even otherwise normal appearing
people start to freak out when a mind starts to drift toward
the outer fringes of human knowledge. It's like they feel really
threatened and need to prevent you from going there, for fear
of what you might discover, i.e. that their impoverished world
views are a gross and imposed lie (like that's some big secret
or something.)
peace out.
- thrival
- Regular Poster
- Posts: 528
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:54 am
by chemelec » Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:01 pm
If you Email Me, the Word "ELECTRONIC" MUST appear in the Subject Line.
My NEW Website is:
http://chemelec.com
My NEW Website is:
http://chemelec.com
- chemelec
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by AlaskaStar » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:40 am
Occom's Razor comes to mind in this. "The Simplest answer is the correct one." Meaning the simple truth is that is every nation's history, there was a great flood. the Pueblo Indians built residences way up high in the mountainside, the Chinese history shows they clung to the treetops for a long time until the waters subsided, the Christians show that Moses built a boat to save hiumself, his family, and a ton of animals. regardless, the nations of earth all show a common thing: A GREAT BIG FLOOD. how does this all lineup with 1 single supreme being or "GOD" when 2 christians cannot agree amongst each other who knows God better than the next. the reality of the situation is actually a RELATIVE PERSPECTIVE of the reality of the situation, and therefore is subject to individual opinion.
and when Moses went up of the mountain and came down with the stone tablets, who said that God made the stones? It could have been alien intervention, who observed that people were corrupt, and came to the mountain, where Moses was at the time, and with Laser guns, carved a set of 10 commandments in the native language of Moses, and since Flying Saucers are commonly glowing, in the relative perspective, Moses could have thought it was God, and it could really be the other way. either way could be right. now whoever cannot agree with the definition of God in the same religion, cannot agree to the definition of God in another religion, and hence a "holy War" in the middle east.
so Occoms Razor comes into play. get the simplest understanding of the complexities. SIMPLIFY IT. no matter how complex, get the bottom line and figure it out for yourself.
I'm not saying that I am right, nor am I saying that I am wrong. the fact remains, that a person looks around at this world in it's pitiful state, and needs something to believe in, and give them hope, let them. regardless. differences of opinion are just that, differences of opinion. so in that, we can easily ascertain (or determine) that it can be a positive thing. people need something to motivate them and drive them forward. depressive and negative attitudes are not good for much of anything. in that notion, why not believe in something, even if you are wrong by someone else's definition?
and by the way, a bad attitude is nothing more than a choice we make every day when we get up in the morning. we make the decision to be nice, or a royal anal retentive prick. in the end, regardless of what country you live in, you have the ultimate freedom to make the choices that you do in your lifetime. they can be good or bad choices, but in the end it is your most ultimate freedom in to make a choice, every day. regardless of what it is, we make our choices based on our relative persepective of the reality of the situation. so why let all this other crap bother you?
simply put, it is a difference of opinion, and a rather childish way to shove it into somebody else's face.
OFF SOAPBOX.
AlaskaStar
and when Moses went up of the mountain and came down with the stone tablets, who said that God made the stones? It could have been alien intervention, who observed that people were corrupt, and came to the mountain, where Moses was at the time, and with Laser guns, carved a set of 10 commandments in the native language of Moses, and since Flying Saucers are commonly glowing, in the relative perspective, Moses could have thought it was God, and it could really be the other way. either way could be right. now whoever cannot agree with the definition of God in the same religion, cannot agree to the definition of God in another religion, and hence a "holy War" in the middle east.
so Occoms Razor comes into play. get the simplest understanding of the complexities. SIMPLIFY IT. no matter how complex, get the bottom line and figure it out for yourself.
I'm not saying that I am right, nor am I saying that I am wrong. the fact remains, that a person looks around at this world in it's pitiful state, and needs something to believe in, and give them hope, let them. regardless. differences of opinion are just that, differences of opinion. so in that, we can easily ascertain (or determine) that it can be a positive thing. people need something to motivate them and drive them forward. depressive and negative attitudes are not good for much of anything. in that notion, why not believe in something, even if you are wrong by someone else's definition?
and by the way, a bad attitude is nothing more than a choice we make every day when we get up in the morning. we make the decision to be nice, or a royal anal retentive prick. in the end, regardless of what country you live in, you have the ultimate freedom to make the choices that you do in your lifetime. they can be good or bad choices, but in the end it is your most ultimate freedom in to make a choice, every day. regardless of what it is, we make our choices based on our relative persepective of the reality of the situation. so why let all this other crap bother you?
simply put, it is a difference of opinion, and a rather childish way to shove it into somebody else's face.
OFF SOAPBOX.
AlaskaStar
"Do we exist, or are we just an existence?"
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by hypersoniq » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:14 pm
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