new guy

[12volt dan]

Hi guys

I've been looking for a site like this for a couple of years now and I must say I'm glad to finally find it. I've been off grid for 10 years building up my solar to a some what respectable 750 watts. I'm using an old 10' dish actuator and a tracker from Redroc to follow the sun and while it's great in the summer the winter leaves a lot to be desired.

I've always liked the idea of making hydrogen as a dump load during the summert to store the excess solar. With the cost of solar up here (100 miles north of Toronto Ca) and the cold winters it make the most sense for storage. If you don't mind me asking a lot of dumb questions I won't mind asking them

I spend most of my time with projects like this, I seem to have a bit of a knack for it. My latest is installing a diesel generator (put together by yours truly) for a cogeneration set up to heat the house as well as charge the batt bank. With a little luck I'll run it on bio diesel ( I'll have to heat it to prevent jelling) to keep costs down. I run bio in the car right now but just a mix as I'm not confident with my bio building yet

Any way I hope to hang around here and pick up some ideas from the experts on the h2 stuff

[Bob Boyce]

Welcome to the site Dan

Are you the same 12volt dan that frequented the other alternative energy sites? I used to go to many of those as well, but I really got tired of the spam or the endless newbie questions. It seemed as though all the guys that were really doing anything avoided posting most of the time. You may remember me, I have about 2 KW of PV solar here and about 1 KW still in storage. My battery bank is not large enough to make use of all of it, and we do not have any sort of state law here to force the power companies to accept net metering or power buyback. Even the electric meters we have here are electronic remote reporting turns count type, so they will report backwards spin the same as forward spin, hence no gorilla grid-tie.

I have a fairly complex system set up that powers the major portion of my house full time via inverter, while allowing some loads (fridge, freezer, water heater, washer/dryer) to remain on grid power. When grid power goes down, some of the grid powered portion (fridge, freezer) switches over to the battery bank via an APC SmartUPS 2200XL that is tied into the 48 VDC PV battery bank. I have a seperate main panel for the primary PV powered loads. If the battery bank for the PV power goes too low, as in too much cloudy weather, then the PV loads switch to grid and a grid powered charger charger kicks in to charge up the battery bank.

It's been running hands-off this way for about a year now, when I upgraded my battery bank. I put in all new batteries and rewired everything for 48 VDC. Prior to that I was running APC 1500VX units that required a 24 VDC battery bank. I retired those and gave them away when I found these 2200XLs on govt auction. Cost was about $150 including the gas to go get these heavy monsters, and 3 of the 4 had recently had new batteries installed. They have a connector on the back to tie into an external 48 VDC battery bank, and the onboard charger parameters are programmable via serial port on the back.

Well it's getting late and I'm tired, have a Dr appt in the morning. Good to see you here.

Bob

[12volt dan]

Yup, That's me. Unless there's another 12volt dan I don't know about,Can't see it though It's not exactly a household name

2k? I'm a little power envious. I can't wait for the day I have that much. I always thought 2 k would be lots enough but from what I'm hearing once you get started building an array it's hard to stop. Personaly I think I'm going to wait awhile for the cost to come down and just run the genny for a few years. Bio's cheep to build once your set up and it's fairly green technology.

Up here the province just mandated buying back and On Hydro has to pay 46 cents per kwh. Sounds good but once you do the math you find it's not a way to make a living. Bio generation will get you 11 cents per so a big enough unit and you might make some money besides, connecting with a genny can be done low tech as well saving all the syncro stuff. Me?, I'm too far away from the lines to worry about grid tie and I've become more interested in a total self sufficent set up but I have a ways to go yet

[Bob Boyce]

You'll be waiting a long time for PV prices to drop. The oil companies bought out the solar industry, and have raped it for all it's worth and continue to do so. I picked up most of my panels on the used market as trade-ins when I had my Siemens Solar dealership in Lake Worth FL. Have very little into them. Most of the deals I brokered, I used the profit margin to order extra panels for myself, so while I didn't make much money doing it, I came out way ahead in panels in the end. Short of time right now but hope to chat more on this later. I'm into all sorts of alternative energy technologies.

Bob

[12volt dan]

[Bob Boyce]

[12volt dan]

[Bob Boyce]

[12volt dan]

Sorry about your health Bob, hope you're feeling better.

Down to a 10 year warranty? I have a few choice cuss words for them but I won't print them. Is it an overheat discolouration? or somthine else. Can you post a pic?

Temps are getting down close to freezing here at night putting a damper on the bio production but I have plenty of other work to keep busy. I'm doing more mechanical side work to get the funds to set up this genny with a heat exchanger and the timer relays to autostart from the wall themostat as well as the plumbing to get the heat back and forth. I may get the old 5hp genny working in the mean time to keep up with the load. My bank is crap. It's about 5 years old and a mismash of old batts mixed with some factoy seconds. If this guy from crown doesn't come through soon I have a buddy at Exide that will get me what I need.

Those tractor batts are garbage and the marine are not far off either. if you can find a battery wholesaler that you can deal with, most are acomadating,at least up here. If you want ,use an 8D battery. they are not called a deep cycle but the plates are solid and the capacity is high, about 250 amp hrs per batt and at a cost of 225 bucks they are a good deal I have no problems using them.,in fact that's what's in here now For what it's worth

I'm readind around in here so I can avoid asking too many stupid questions about h production. I'm a truck and coach mechanic that does bodywork as well hense a good supply of 18ga stainless. It appears that 12volt brute fore with a bunch of plates is the way for me to go but there's more to read yet

[Bob Boyce]

Hello Dan

I had a group come visit me yesterday and help me out big time. Brian (brian), Kevin (burnhydroxy), Leon (mos68x) and his wife and son drove here to visit.

I had bought a 12V, 2000 pound capacity electric cable winch from Harbor Freight Tools a while back, and erected 20' of Rohn 25 tower next to the pole as a support structure for the lift. Without any help, it was not going any further than that.

Kevin volunteered to go up the tower and do the on-tower work using my tower belt that no longer fits me. He cut the pole off at about 11' with a sawsall, and secured the cable winch to the top of the tower.

Brian and Leon assembled the upper sub-array to the central array, which was required in order to attach the season adjustment to the mount. The mount was adjusted to winter position to better align the angle of the mount with the pole, and the array was hoisted up to position. We discovered that the hoist did not have a reverse switch to lower the array, so here we were with an 800 lb array assembly, hanging by the cable. Kevin had to climb to the top with the winch handle and loosen the clutch enough to hand crank the array down onto the pole. As if this was not enough, the back of the mount kept hanging up on the tower and pole, so Leon and Brian had to keep working it back and forth to get it to come down. Kevin inserted a sheet of 1/4" 316 plate scrap as a slide to get the mount to slip enough to get past the tower rungs. After some twisting and wiggling, it finally lowered all the way, so it was aligned it to the south and Kevin tightened the bolts to secure the mount to the pole. Kevin then removed and lowered the hoist, and the guys dropped the top section of tower out of the way. Kevin set the season tilt for approximately spring/fall position, and came on down from the tower. The wiring will be done after I hang the lower sub-array, which is the 4 Siemens panels. I can reach the bottom of the array from a ladder to add those panels, but I will have to go up the tower to do the wiring on the rest of it. I really need to mount my electrical junction box up there anyways.

After that, we went into the shop where the guys proceeded to frame up the north wall with furring so I can finish with insulation and ply. These guys deserve a lot of credit for driving all that way to get here, and for helping me out. They did more in one day than I could have done in a year by myself. Thank you guys!


Yea, I just loved how they can, over 5 years after the sale, cut my original 25 year warranty period to less than half. It's certainly not my fault that Siemens Solar decided to sell out to an oil company. The discoloration is not from overheat. The panels were not even in service at the time. I had just assembled the primary array and had the entire array laying face up on a set of sawhorses with support boards to support the array mount. They were not even in direct sun at the time, they were shaded by the house because it was in the fall. I had posted pics of the discolorations on some of the solar power forums way back when I had to dismantle the array. I will have to take those panels out of storage again to remount, so maybe I can remember to get some new pictures.

As the temps drop up there, I would imagine the bio processes would take longer. It is cool here but not too cold yet. Beautiful weather if you ask me. Thank goodness, this is the time of year that I can tolerate the lowered humidity and spend time outside, and be able to breathe ok. It's great to be free of the oxygen tether outdoors part of the year. using the waste heat from genset exhause certainly makes a lot os sense to me. I used to do a lot of battery rejuvination with desulphators of my own design. I can get plenty of the group 31 lift truck batteries from the scrap yard for a few bucks each, just have not bothered to do so recently. An array of recovered lead would go far in helping me here once I get more panels online. The more batteries I have, the less I would need to discharge them, and the longer they would last ;0)

While I would really prefer to have an all-electric energy production source, the genset approach may be a short term answer. I just hate to have to rely on ICEs for my energy. There is a lot of info on this site where you can read up on it. Let me know if you have any questions about the HOD systems that you cannot find answers for.

Bob

[Bob Boyce]

Well I went ahead and took the other panels out of storage and took some pictures of the discoloration prior to mounting them to the array.

These 2 are pictures taken prior that were sent to Shell Solar for analysis of the discoloration



and



These are pictures taken today



and



I hope these pictures post ok. If so, I may post a new message with pictures of the array during construction, and how it currently looks on the polar mount.

Bob

[12volt dan]

[12volt dan]

Lets try this again.

Can I edit my posts? I can't seem to find a way

[Bob Boyce]

Nice setup! I love the round house, looks to be tons of thermal mass there in those walls.

Yea it looked to be water related to me, but I still sought an explanation from Shell. They had no clue either, said they never seen it before. They said it may have been water, but how can sealed panels leak if they were made right? Not supposed to I imagine. A few cells are pretty bad but most only have little spots of it along the metal grid lines and contact strips. The amazing part is they still put out above rated power, even with the weird discoloration. I have noticed that the discoloration seems to be less and less noticable as time goes on. Maybe the silicon wafers are drying out again.

Working up a storm to get ahead? Just don't burn yourself out there. 12 volts can only be stretched so thin

I've been busy lately. I am relocating the entire PV support system to the shop, so I have been busy mounting electrical boxes, running conduit, and pulling wire. My rolls of 3/0 wire have been sitting outside for a while now and they look kinda grungy. It's THWN with that gasoline and oil resistant film. The film is all skinned up and trapping water betwwen it and the insulation. It will not fit in the blue smurf tube I am using for wire loom with that junk on it, so I have been patiently pealing it off and wiping the insulation down with rags as I go. Looks like new, and fits snugly in the smurf tube afterwards. I will be running that in the shop wall as my 200 amp battery bank to DC breaker panel cable.

I had to order a new OutBack Solar PS2DC-100, and a pair of 60 amp DC breakers so I can connect the MX60 to my system. My existing 200 amp DC panel is mounted in the wall of the equipment closet of the house. I did not feel like ripping it out and leaving a huge hole in the wall. Upon reviewing the billing invoice, I noticed they are not including the 100 amp breaker that normally comes with it. Now I know how they managed to beat everyone elses price. That's ok, I can add to it later if need be.

Bob

[12volt dan]

Tons of mass is right,I figure about 30 yards of mortor worth. Just thinking about it puts a kink in my back

Your right on the overwork,I seem to go in spurts working my kester off for a while then sitting back for a month or two after. I'd like a more stable pace but can't seem to find it. Oh well the pendulem will swing back again shortly.

Full fall colours are here now,it looks good for this week and then the drudgery of winter starts for another season,it's not somthing I look forward to. maybe global warming will come early and I can adapt to the tropics

Bio production is done for this year. The temps are too cold for b-100. B-50 is good to -15C but mixing it every time I need a fill up is a pain and if I store it outside? well lard doesn't mix well heh heh heh. The Jetta doesn't use much anyway to worry too much about. I hope to run an insulated,heated tank for the cogeneration set up but not this year. If I can keep the tank warm enough between engine run cycles I can run b-100 through the winter and put a real dent in the heating costs as well as energy. Twould be nice to be cozy without stoking the fire at 30 below