[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4752: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4754: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4755: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4756: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
OUPower.com • View topic - discouraged

discouraged

This forum is for discussing anything related to electrolysis and electrolyzer designs.

Postby waterboy » Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:26 am

waterboy
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:14 am

Postby waterboy » Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:28 am

But wait there's more.. Jack987,

Someone mentioned that heating the water was a waste of energy... Yikes! This person just doesn't know what he is talking about. Do a little xperiment:

Heat the water to 150 degrees F and measure current use and H output. Now place ice water in the cell and do the same. Make a little graph in Excel and chart the results. Then ignore that person that made that comment.

I guess Stan Meyer didn't cover the subject from a to z or know what he was talking about. That is why he invented a microwave steam resonator for no reason...

Or.. You can just watch a video on google of a redneck that was bright enough to figure it out - it is just common sense.

[url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6128911880382066067&ei=iPhQSNKpCpX84AKa8JzEDA&hl=en
[/url]
waterboy
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:14 am

Postby waterboy » Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:02 am

Same guy with an even smaller tube.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... zEDA&hl=en

I doubt people anyone is seeing that kind of production using spare change for plates and 6 amps.

Now imagine what all that gas that is recombining in the top of the cell due to voltage surface tension would look like going through a bubbler?

Now multiply that 1 cell times 15 cells that I placed in my vessel. I haven't even gotten into the power side yet but the google guy is claiming 144 watts pulsed. Assuming 50% duty cycle and true RMS he is using 72 watts of power.

Now imaging what 500-1000 watts of power looks like at 50% duty cycle.

Don't get discouraged. If we learn from our failures what does not work, it is not a failure, it is a successful experiment. I have have more of those "successful experiments" than I car to remember.

Each time you learn something from experience, you have more to build upon. As you have more to build upon, you will begin to learn this science at an exponential rate. The last thing you want to do is add the magical thinking of belief, disbelief, wishful thinking or someone else's insanity. Try it for yourself ALWAYS!

Let me know how your hot cold experiment works and how the power curve looks.
waterboy
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:14 am

Postby huck » Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:38 am

huck
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 140
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 12:05 pm

Pulsing with efficiency

Postby SeaMonkey » Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:03 pm

The Pulse Width Modulator circuit is very useful for trimming current flow through whatever kind of electrolyzer you're running from the automotive electrical system (14 Volts).

It is possible to "put to useful work" generating HydrOxy the excess power in the pulses, rather than wasting it as excessive heating of the electrolyte.

Place a high current inductor in the wiring to the electrolyzer and a free wheeling high current schottky diode across the wiring, in the proper polarity to discharge the inductor when the pulse is off. The inductor can be hand made using a reasonably sized ferrite toroid that is wound with about 20 turns of heavy wire capable of carrying the current you intend to drive the cell with. The Schottky Diode in a TO-220 or TO-247 package that is rated at 60 Amperes/ 40 Volts would cost about $3.00.

Set the Pulse Width Modulator frequency to 10 KHz minimum, up to 20 KHz, and the total circuit as described above will function as a "buck" switching power supply to provide continuous current to the electrolyzer; Pulses from the PWM will energize the inductor and the electrolyzer, then after the pulse has ended the inductor will discharge into the electrolyzer sustaining current flow until the next pulse. Set the Pulse Width for the desired Amperage into the electrolyzer, and vary it as conditions change to increase/decrease current on the fly.

This will increase the efficiency of your electrolyzer while minimizing the excessive heating that represents wasted power.

Here's a to a tutorial on how it works. For the electrolyzer application the capacitor shown in the circut is unnecessary.
User avatar
SeaMonkey
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: Dystopia, USSA

Postby waterboy » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:43 am

Sea Monkey,

1. Buck boost is a method of recapturing energy during a TRANSFORM. We are not doing a transform in the circuit and a inductor is not a transformer, it is a saturable reactor.

2. Current is the component of electricity that is splitting the water, not voltage. Current is also what saturates the inductor - work lost.

3. By taking voltage and current out of phase, you send the current back around the loop and each time there is an energy loss.

4. By adding the recycle of the diode, you create the illusion of an energy gain but in reality, you just have less net loss.

5. Current, not voltage is what cracks water in brute force electrolysis. Current not voltage is what saturates the inductor. Notice any bubbles coming from your inductor? Me either.

6. The reaction is never going to be greater than the action. I.e., if it does not knock you over backwards to shoot the gun, getting hit by the bullet will not knock you over backwards either. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The inductor is a "reactor".

7. As previously stated in a post, heat is not a waste.

8. The quickest way to fool yourself on power consumption is to use a pulsed circuit. It is foolish to measure without using a good RMS AND Fourier analysis.

9. The Russian plasma electrolysis Dr. ??? (can never Russian names) wrote a nice piece regarding PWM and how people fool themselves and each other on his website. Find it, read it.

10. For every H2O molecule that splits, there is a tiny molecular boil that takes place between the H and O atoms. Just because you can't see it with your eye does not mean that it did not happen. The hotter the water, the less energy required to produce that boil which is what separates the two different atoms.

11. The whole inductor thing is busy work for people that know nothing about electricity or what Meyer had going.

12. The two "pick up coils" in Meyer's patent are the two PRIMARIES of a common flyback transformer. The PRIMARY in the drawing is the secondary of that flyback. See how he reversed it to trick you?

He patented the entire spectrum of electrolysis. Most people are not sharp enough to sort out one of the method or apparatus of a single process, much less separate them into the various methods and apparatuses. It is like looking at a haystack in the mirror and then looking for the needle. :-)

Unfortunately, that worked on most people. Meyer was not your buddy.
waterboy
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 280
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 3:14 am

Buck circuits are very efficient...

Postby SeaMonkey » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:18 am

Waterboy,

The Buck circuit does indeed perform a transform; in fact it is often referred to as a DC Transformer. The sustained output current from the inductor is several times greater than the pulsed input current. T=L/R The input "charging" pulse sees a higher impedance than the inductor during discharge, therefore a brief charging pulse results in an extended discharge current pulse.

It is not intended for the inductor to reach magnetic saturation, nor is it ever desireable. Magnetic saturation of the inductor in the Buck circuit would result in heavy losses.

Temperature does indeed affect the conductivity of the electrolyte solution so therefore, a certain amount of coincidental heating is productive. However, once so much heat is produced that the electrolyzer becomes a "steaming behemoth" then the losses are very considerable.

You have posted some strong opinions which are, unfortunately, quite incorrect. The Non-Isolated Buck DC to DC converter circuit is well established as a highly efficient and very reliable means of "transforming" power that is very widely used in low voltage power distribution systems and all computers being produced today. It has, without any doubt, proven its utility.

The Buck circuit is not intended as an enhancement to the Meyer Non-Electrolysis Cell, but is rather intended to increase the efficiency of the simple automotive electrolyzer booster which relies upon conventional electrolysis.

Contrary to your expressed opinion, Meyer had numerous patents relating to a Non-Electrolysis Resonant Cell which utilized high voltage monopolar pulses feeding an LC Circuit coupled to the Non-Electrolysis Cell. In order to develop the high voltage needed across the cell electrodes it is absolutely necessary to insulate one or more of the electrodes with a high voltage dielectric. Only then will anyone attain the several KV needed, with a superimposed resonant waveform, which will account for the small "milliampere" reactive current "through" the cell.

I do concur with your belief that "Meyer was not your buddy." He was a very wily man who used deceptive language to obfuscate the simplicity of his cell and its attendant circuitry.

Regarding the Buck Converter and whether or not it will increase the efficiency of ordinary electrolysis in the series electrolyser operating at 14 Volts, comparisons must be made. I have done that and can vouch for the truth. I therefore invite any who may desire to put it to the test to do so. The results will be gratifying.
User avatar
SeaMonkey
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 396
Joined: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:00 pm
Location: Dystopia, USSA

Postby jack987 » Sun Jun 15, 2008 12:35 am

jack987
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 5:27 pm

Postby a3holerman » Sun Jun 15, 2008 9:38 am

So are you al saying that electrolite temp effects conductivity thus current flow but does it effect gas production for a given current? Basically for lets say in a given cell will 10A produce the same gas flow when either cold or hot?

Tom
Cape Cod
a3holerman
Regular Poster
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Wed May 28, 2008 2:24 am
Location: Cape Cod

Previous

Return to Hydrogen Production via Electrolysis

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 8 guests

cron