Water into Hydrogen Gas and into electric form?

[scopemaster]

Evening all,

I am new to this forum and new to the idea of using hydrogen as an alternate energy source. For quite a few days I have been searching high and low through out the internet then I found this forum. Great forum by the way.

I am sick and tired of the gas pricing going up and up. Our troops in all essance attempting to protect the oil interest, Saudi's dominate control over the oil reserves is getting a bit out of control.

I read in a national paper this afternoon (at a paper stand) that around thanksgiving this year (2005) the maximum production world wide will be at its peak. After that watch out as the prices will begin to rise faster than ever.

I am not one to beleve every thing I read but in this case I can. They had also metioned it will not be long when a barrel of oil will double within a short few months if not sooner From what I saw will be in excess of $110.00 a barrel. Not in years but months. Right now it cost me around $30-$35.00 a week to fill up and thats only drivig to work and back. So I am expected to pay over $60.00 by this time next year? Winter is around the corner so a motor cycle is out of the question. riding a bike at my age over 15miles on ice is not a good idea, there is no local mass transportation, there are no cabs so what is one to do?

Think the employers will be generious and increase our pay to match the increase? NO. They are cutting health benifits as it is, or just cutting it totally to save on the rising cost.

OK-Enough of my blabber mouthing. Instead of complaining I figure I should do some thing my self. So here I am learning from you guys.

OK, Now I have taken what I have been able to pick up on from this forum and modeled a simple electrolysis system with a 12v battery, a half a teaspoon of soduim hydrozide (Hard to find pure in this area) and distilled water using a simple 2 stainless steel bolts in a plastic container.

It was great. I was able to fill a 16oz plastic soda bottle with hydrogen within 3 mins.

Also was cool but I think was a dumb thing was thinking I had only a small amount of hydrogen at best. And then put a flame under the plastic bottle, and then there was a KaBoom........ Bottle flew up and slambed into the ceiling tiles (12' up), hit the wall, then bounced of and hit the work bench and finally bounced off into the floor. All within what was microseconds. My partner and I was shocked and speachless for a moment tryig to register in our minds wat just happened.

No flames at all and it was fast. But I will rethink a beter way to test for hydrogen on the next test. Any suggestions for a safe test method?

My next question is how can I use the hydrogen gas created through electrolysis and convert into electric? (At an amature level to begin the learning process) Maybe to run a small electic 6-9v miniture motor for testing.

For now instead of going big to run a car, lawn tractor, motor cycles or boats I figure on keeping it on a small scale and improve it to maximum operation then work towards a meaning ful solution.

Being to most individuales are working towards running a combustion engine, I will try and produce electric to run a small electric motor for develoment. Attach a small prop on the front to create a load.

I performed a search for fuel cells on this forum but I seem to always get links to only obtaining electrolosis but nothing on a fuel cell development at a back yard expermental needs.

Any one with suggestions out there?

If I can get a working model I have my own server and have the ability to setup a live cam to let the experment run until it quit's. If it runs 2 hours, 12 hours, 24 hours, 3 days a week a month or what ever it will be live on the internet for you all to track its progress.

Exampl I have another hobby where I have established my own weather station and a live weather cam. I have at live camera set up so I can keep watch on the weather at home from work. (Really to keep tabs on my wife while I am at work LOL) Check out my persoal weather site from . You can get to the web cam from which is my main personal web site.

I am also open to any suggestion any one may have. I am open to any new thought or ideas.

[Loster]

Damned Fossil Fuel ..

I am too interested in making a fuel cell, I've search a bit, but I haven't come to anything useful .. They say, you need 2 plates on the H2 and O side, ( you can use Air for the oxygen part ) ..

You need a thin layer of a catalyst (??) on the other side of the plates and between the plates you need something else (??) ..

So you have 2 unknown things in the process ..

The process is to capture the electrons in the recomposition of H2O and use it as a current ..


It's nothing very complicated ..

OH but I found something interesting, take a look a http://sci-toys.com/scitoys/scitoys/ech ... _cell.html It's crappy but it is what we are looking for, in a non-useful way ..


Something else, for electrolysis .. I think the best way to do it is in microscale ... The human is against nature in the way it thinks ... The nature is always recursively organising things .. Atoms, Mollecules, Cells ......

Let's think of a way to make electrolysis a recursive process .. We could make hundreds of mini units that would add together to a greater degree of efficiency .. Instead of one big unit ..

I'll give that a try ..

And, I'm in the process of moving to another appartment, the gas price is too much, so I'm moving near electric trains and near my work ..

I thing the world we live in will change in a short time .

[kevinsatterfield]

yeah i agree with the world change. been reading on the aztec or myan people and thier calander which is millions of years old runs out in 2012.hope to be running on hydro before then.....!

[Loster]

http://www.ch2bc.org/FCHandbook/TechOver1-1FCDesc.htm

Check this site, it explains how the fuel cell works. .

The problem is to find a good metal for the electrodes (Stainless steel!?) and to find the best electrolyte.. They talk about KOH somewhere..

Solid Oxide Fuel Cell (SOFC)
The electrolyte in this fuel cell is a solid, nonporous metal oxide, usually Y2O3-stabilized ZrO2. The cell operates at 650 to 1000°C where ionic conduction by oxygen ions takes place. Typically, the anode is Co-ZrO2 or Ni-ZrO2 cermet, and the cathode is Sr-doped LaMnO3.

This one would be cool! .. But seems complicate in design .

[Loster]

I wonder if this could work .

Sanded Stainless Steel Electrodes (- or Steel electrode ? -) 1 mm layer of Electrolyte (- NaOH/Water??? -) ...

And they talk about Heat.. That would be cool in winter to heat my appartment .

[Loster]

Oh and I wonder what Aluminum would do on the Oxygen side..

Since Aluminum Oxide is coated on the metal ..

Well, it would be a Steel / aluminum electrode to prevent Aluminum to react with the electrolyte .

Hey, but that would be a really cool process..

I don't know if this would work, but let's suppose it would :

The Al will provide the Oxygen to the H2 side .

Let's design the cell like this :

H2 |E||Water

you have H2 input, sanded Stainless Steel electrode, Electrolyte 1mm layer, Steel/AL electrode and Water .

The Oxide Layer of AL will make possible the generation of electricity by interacting with the H2 on the other side, the Water will be exposed to the Fresh Aluminum and generate H2, the Oxide Layer will reform and react with the newly added H2 from the water ..

Wouldn't that work !?

Aluminum would be consumed, but the electrolyte would not and you would have a Self running H2 Battery .

[scopemaster]

It appears fuelcells are not as simple as creating the hydrogen gas in the first place. All I have seen so far is the large corporations has the funding and access to the exotic materials to create a fuelcell in the first place.

So I am thinking is this why the push is for fuel cells in stead of on demand combustion? The fuel cell technology is another money making idea for the corporations? They will be selling units of which the general public will not be capabe of reproducing. Prices for such units would be controlled and monopolized by a few keeping cost high?

Is a fuel cell more effecient than a combustion environment in the first place? Maybe yes or maybe no.

I personally see affording platinum which is more costly than gold will keep the prices up there. There must be a simple solution out there. suppose I need to spend a ton of research on different alloys and reactions to hydrogen gasses.

I enjoyed the posting from Loster with the link to TechOver1-1FCDesc.htm. Sparks a thought than instead of just allowing the H2 and O mix together after the H2 is released from the water, it should be seperated and used some how in the fuel cell's reintroduction of the 2 gasses together once again.

I have been doing fuel cell searching and so far I see talk in general terms in fuel cell operation. I also see kits and books to buy on the how to but so far no real working or ideas. It seems like one needs to develop from scratch and from a new perspective. There must be some type of series of metal alloys where passing the (H2) & (O) gasses will excite and produce usable electricity? At least alloys the public can access.

Monday I will be visiting a machine shop which has several types of materials and alloys. I would like to figure out in advance what I may possibly need to try and get samples to experment with. I think asking for a little of every thing with out any ideas would be pushing it. Right now they are a free resource I can use as long as I do not take advantage of. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

I will alos be obtaining a few very strong rare earth magnet's as I will also be approaching the releasing of H2 from water by electromagnetic methods. No clear cut Idea yet just a hunch right now.

[Loster]

ScopeMaster :

You've got a good point, they will only release the technology when they find a way to make us depend on them ..

So that's why they don't research in Real-Time Gas production and why they want us to refill each time so they can control us ..

Fuel cells are supposedly 60% efficient compared to 20-40% of a combustion engine ..

[Bob Boyce]

[scopemaster]

We all can agree one one thing, THEY will not allow us the technology that our tax dollars pay's for. Lets get this right, You & I pay Taxes for the government to issue grants for studies to find the effective means to enegry conservation, Then once the technoloy has been discovered then the research facility and goverrnment with my tax dollars has the nerves to keep the technology from us. Then finances ventures to ensure large corportations can continue making money from this technology by charing use for the rights to use what we paid for right?

Well I am a real beleaver that we can make a difference. I honestly think if a simple solution was found and implimented before the corp or government has a chance to squash the information, when the information is publicly released every thing in life as we all know it will rapidly change. From the billionares lossig every thing and the the working class person has every thing to gain.

What would a barrel of oil be worth if the world had Hydrogen as its primary energy source? How could the government protect every source of water world wide to prevent its use as a fuel? How could the government tax water in the first place?

In all reality its all up to us to find and release this information to th world. If we had the answers to the how toos then the corporations ould need to close up shop or work on the real issues like making the new technology better. Not hide the technology completely.

They should let the public decide what they want, Not the other way around and the government dictates what we are to know or want.

To the main issue of this topic: Any one with any working knowledge of what would make the best material choices for Anode, Cathode and Electrolite (Known as I recall ION Conductor)?


It seems the Molten Carbonate Fuel Cell (MCFC) will be the best solution to begin with. I seems the materials are nickle verse the use of exotic alloys. How ever temperatures exceeding 1000 degree's F seems to be a bit much and would require a massive amount of energy it's self to use. Ref Lobser's Link

I suppose I will concentrate research specifically on materials needed to reproduce a simple fuelcell. Any links would be greatly appreciated.

[Loster]

Scope :

My nickname is Loster ..

Well, the gov can't do anything against water, it's dripping from the sky ! ..

As for H2 generation .. I don't understand why they say that the best way to get it is by using natural gas .. That's stupid, water is free and easy to find, inexhaustible etc etc .. . .

There are many ways to implement this, I will not go there, everybody knows them ... And it could be more effective ..

But my real concern is real-time production .. That would be a very great advancement ...

[scopemaster]

I am beginning to think of the fuel cell as a new generation battery simular to a typical lead acid battery except instead of charging the battery it will be a converter. IE a battery used in reverse per say.

Think I have narrowed down the materials for testing needs. I can use Zinc or Aluminum Alloy such as 6061-T6 with a Graphite or 18-8 (304) Stn Steel.

Ref following chart found on the internet:

Active (More Negative) End Magnesium
Zinc
Aluminum Alloys
Carbon Steel
Cast Iron
13% Cr (Type 410 SS (Active)
18-8 (Type 304) SS (Active)
Naval Brass
Copper
70-30 Copper-Nickel Alloy
13% Cr (Type 410) SS (Passive)
Titanium
18-8 (Type 304) SS (Passive)
Graphite
Gold
Noble (More Positive) End Platinum

I have also found that the Platnium is not a solid alloy but a plated titanium alloy. I can assume other material needs can be obtained through plating.

But for the initial development maybe enough information can be done with the basic alloys metioned above.

Unless I am on an incorrect track, I am going to rework the electrolysis to seperate the H2 and O from each other in place of releasing the H2 & O in the same chamber then pipe the 2 seperately directly to the alloys to be used. H2 ot the graphite/18-8SS and the O to the Zinc/Alum plates.I think I will be making these alloys plates where the 2 facing surfaces will have an electrolite solution of distilled H2O and Sodium Hydroxide with a chambers on the dry sides of the 2 different plates, then pass the H2 over the Graphite or Stn Steel plates and on the opposite side with the Aluminum Alloy or Zinc coated plate the O gas extracted from the eletrolysis.

I am not totally sure where to pipe out the exhaust at this point. I suspect I could then use the excess for storage unless it changes back to H2O for recycling.

It may be crude way to begin but with local resources I suppose its a start. If I am missing something some one else may know about please holler out.

I am not sure but maybe I will need to charge up the initial start up with an electrical charge to act as a starter and maybe it will continue producing something.

[Loster]

Scope :

Some metals may react the electrolyte I believe .. ?!

What kind of electrolyte are you thinking about ?!


I loved the solid Oxide fuel cell for one thing, the Heat it is generating, it could be used into electrolysis or in superheated Water ..