guessing for catalysts?

[thrival]

Chemistry wasn't my major so this thread will show my ignorance, but
I want to start it based on the remarks of AlaskaStar and hoping others might contribute what they think his catalyst might be. It seems a worthwhile direction to persue.

One thought being to dissassociate water (H2O) we need to separate and/or sequester the O, thereby liberating the H. A highly oxidizable material should serve for this. Iron, copper or aluminum would qualify, iron being the cheaper, or a material otherwise hungry for oxygen, might sequester O. Anything that accelerates oxidation (formation of oxides on a metal) should produce (release) the H2. That metal oxide would then need to be recycled. Does anyone know the price per ton of iron oxide (rust?) The Creator knows how well iron grabs oxygen; He put it in our blood.

Activated charcoal absorbs gases and has TREMENDOUS surface area. Once it has adsorbed, it's just ordinary carbon, and could be burned as such, or regenerated (recycled) at lower heats to drive off the bonded gases and be reused again and again. Now carbon doesn't typically absorb oxygen but in a submerged condition where it has a choice of two gases, which would it take, the O or the H? Carbon is a good conductor and everyone knows, a good fuel, also sold for fertilizer. Coal sells for about $10./ton

A guy named William Richardson patented aquafuel, (US Patent #5,435,274) "discovered" (an old process the oil industry has long known about) that electricity to submerged carbon gives off a hydrocarbon gas-- H2-C-O. His process uses relatively high currents, 120V but is still 40:1 over-efficient as far as input power (not counting the coal used up) which I understand can be recovered in the CO and CO2 seltzer portion of water emitted as exhaust. Carbonation processes are used in the construction industry as a setting agent with lime to reconvert slurries back to limestone. Richardson was using coal, NOT low power, resonance or activated charcoal, so all of these are unexplored avenues.

Since AlaskanStar mentioned making tritium (H3) either by accident or intentionally, I presume in that case he was using ammonia (NH3) which would require the N be sequestered, forming a nitrate byproduct (fertilizer). Now pure potassium and sodium (tricky around water though) are sequestering agents for nitrates, which are used as fertilizers, and for reasons we all understand, our government would prefer we know little to nothing about, much less have easy access to. (The carbon and nitrogen cycles are best understood processes in the life cycle.) Something he was using, grabbed the nitrogen and/or O, maybe activated C? ...at resonant low power, to release the H3.

These all seem like fairly simple experiments. Funny how few of us have tried them.

Ammonium nitrate, sulfate or chloride, or sulfuric acid will lower the temp of water when hydrated. The first is used for cold-paks, and fertilizers.

Activated carbon, iron powder, and ammonia, now that would be an interesting brew to zap.

[kww]

How come they don't zap more coal for energy? Thanks for filling my head full of new things to try.

[thrival]

No prob, kww.

As for the answer to your question, because it's too intelligent &
too clean to burn coal that way. The oil companies know about
it tho. Years back I tried to help the inventor find funding, posted
it on a business BBS. I was contacted by an oil company exec who
asked me if it was a submerged carbon arc, so they already knew.

...and because it's a big secret. Shhhhh... (sic).

[BEMET]

Anyone ever try dropping calcium sulfate (CaSO4) into carbonated water(carbonic acid)? I know two people who have. Just got a 3rd edition of Timbie's book and will study it after 4 other books I have on my night stand. Thanks for the hints.

Lance

[thrival]

BEMET:

No, I don't know what happens if you do that. Calcium carbonate or calcium oxide as a byproduct? I would guess it might just as well go the other way-- Ca-Mg carbonate + H2SO4 --> CaSO4 + MgS04. (H2SO4 + any metal does release hydrogen.) Limestone/fish bones/crab & oyster shells (carbonate) and gypsum are used for fertilizer. It might be difficult separating metal plates (if you use them) from setting blocks of gypsum, or limestone! Please keep us posted.

...Uh, back again. I think with all your help and clues I might have figured it out. Sulfuric acid at 98% has a specific gravity of 1.83, and i believe the reactant is probably calcium carbonate (fish bones) that companies might give away to AlaskaStar by the truckload. (Agricultural lime, rock dust, limestone should also work, about $2.50 per 50 lb. bag, retail.) Reacting the two would give calcium and calcium-magnesium sulfate, respectively, sold as fertilizer. Is gypsum a waste material for construction companies? I suppose it could be if you need to demolish buildings made of wallboard.

I actually did this experiment a few years back for an entirely different reason (found a recipe for making artificial pearls although I have to say the H2SO4 was no help, since found a better way.) Anyway the oyster shell/acid brew fizzed like the dickens, but it's a hot reaction tho, not a cool one. There has to be a trick to controlling the reaction, maybe hydrating the carbonate and then adding acid very slowly, to keep the H2 production linear, like a metering pump, that might actually fit in a suitcase. Doh! I never actually tried igniting the gas, so need to do the experiment again. Could the reaction be driven even further with added electricity? More hydrogen off-gassed as Ca-H2SO4 bonds are made and (later) broken?

Now if it were possible to get our CaCO2 back just by adding carbonated water (recovering H2SO4?) ...and in process making more hydrogen, like an endothermic reaction both ways, wouldn't that be sweet?

[eman]

[AlaskaStar]

[thrival]

TO: AlaskaStar

Many thanks for responding.

OK let's forget about CaC02 for a while and focus on (Ca-Mg)CO2.
We know both are happy to become oxides once the CO2 is gotten rid
of.

"Experts" are gabbing how Mg is an ideal medium for H storage but they don't know how to break the MgH2 bond once made. My point is it looks like Mg is hungry for H and Ca for O, so Ca & Mg could well be the metal catalysts. I mean we find them already together in nature as dolimite rock/limestone

They say the way to get Mg to let go of the H2 is to weaken the ionic bond.
Here's a link:

http://www.tytlabs.co.jp/english/review ... ritake.pdf

Uh, H2SO4 might do that, since Ca & Mg are just as happy to become sulfates as oxides or hydrides. At any rate it wouldn't make sense to add more CO2 to Ca-MgCO2 before electrolysis.

But if the Mg could be made to its hydride (by acquring H2 from the water molecule, or H2SO4) then maybe it could be nudged away with CO2 back to its carbonate form again?

So I'll take this gander:

(Ca-Mg)CO2 + H2SO4 --> Ca(H2SO4) + Mg(H2SO4) (giving off CO2, not especially useful.)

The Mg probably likes the H a little more so just assuming the Mg gets some hydrides.

It just looks here like a little electricity here might start tearing it up. I think it would leave some sulfer as a byproduct.

Hmmm... I'll bet sulfer has a real affinity for activated charcoal, at least I recall high sulfer coal being a bugaboo when it rains.

Which leads me thinking in another direction, just skip the Ca and lets mess with Mg(H2SO4) & charcoal. I'll bet the carbon would grap the SO4 handle, leaving the Mg hydride. Both could serve as electrodes in an electrified fluidized bed/colloidal solution, and the carbon might be used up as CO2 gas in the reaction (H2 with CO2; hey, isn't that a hydro-carbon?), but then carbon isn't typically thought of as a metal, but would need to be "replaced." ...or MgCO2 + H2SO4 ---> MgH2SO4, off-gassing H2 & CO2, then MgH2SO4 with C, electrified ---> MgCO2, off-gassing H2 (?)

But that's as far up the hill as my go-cart will get.
I ordered timbe's book thru interlibrary loan, hope to learn more. Have epsons salts handy.

P.S. Thank you Chris, Bob B., BEMET, kww, kadora, et al.



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New addy:

Someone else posted this so want to give due credit, but couldn't find the info. Here it is: Linnard Griffin's patent applications at:

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Par ... =IN&d=PG01