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OUPower.com • View topic - First questions to first beginners for new beginners !

First questions to first beginners for new beginners !

This forum is for discussing anything related to electrolysis and electrolyzer designs.

First questions to first beginners for new beginners !

Postby victor » Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:43 pm

hello.. i think this is the most suitable name for topic .. because many people have many questions when they interest with HHO or hydrohen at first... like me :) before i write these sentences here i read many many pages on internet, but i still have questions, and i think i will have always questions :!: i hope someone reply me..
for now i use straight DC, 12 volt source.. and i made some experiments with a drycell that 8" x 8" , 5 plates, 316, -NNN+ ...
1- about rate of KOH. for example my water tank has 2800cc water capacity and my cell has 200cc water(or mixture) capacity.. if i want to use 10% KOH, how much KOH is necessary, 20 gr or 300 gr? at the otherhand if i add certain KOH to the all water in the tank, lets say the current I1, and if i add same amount KOH with a little water to the cell, and then adding all rest water to tank, lets say current I2.. why are these currents always diffrent?

2-if KOH is nonvolatile in the electrolysis process, why does current decrease when i add water to tank (when water in the tank is reduced)

3-if i use 12 volt straight DC as a power suply, do i produce only parahydrogen, or mixture para and ortho? if is it mixture, what are the rates?

4-if i use a PWM as a power suply, do i produce 75% orthohydrogen and 25% parahydrogen?

5-is HHO energy produced by a PWM greater 2.5-3 times than produced by a straight DC?

victor
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anyone reply??

Postby victor » Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:35 pm

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Postby resident_genius » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:05 am

where is the line between tinkerer and scientist, scientist and madman, madman and genius?

http://resident-genius.com
'Nuff said.

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Postby victor » Tue Mar 09, 2010 6:06 pm

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Postby resident_genius » Sat Mar 13, 2010 11:02 am

shortof finding the resonant frequency, using a PWM will only delay the inevitable thermal runaway. regardless of pulsing the power, you're still hitting it with 12-14 volts.

which is completely unnecessary.

have u ever looked at my website? i do the general math....a PWM on a cell that draws 25 amps still uses about 345 watts! how much of that is wasted wattage?



however, a dc-dc converter will blast the cell with maybe 2.5-3.3 DCV. at 25 amperes, its aroudn 62 to 82 watts.

same surface area, same cell, stronger electrolyte, same amperes, same output. (supposing that you never found the magical frequency that supposedly exists... sorry im a bit jaded on the subject but im tired of seeing tinkerer after tinkerer fail and fail again and spend countless hours trying to no avail.)

i have overcome EVERY SINGLE drawback to the brute force electrolysis method. no thermal runaway. completely controllable from the drivers seat. and it works!!! most important of all.

people use PWM because its on ebay for $25 to your door. its an old technology. its what others had to work with, and sorta delays the whole thermal runaway thing. i had to contact the president of an alternative energy company and give him a 30 second pitch about what i wanted to do.... he sent me five chips au gratis for me to test out. i have succeeded in my efforts.
where is the line between tinkerer and scientist, scientist and madman, madman and genius?

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Postby mmalcewicz » Sat Mar 13, 2010 9:28 pm

Victors question 1- about rate of KOH. for example my water tank has 2800cc water capacity and my cell has 200cc water(or mixture) capacity.. if i want to use 10% KOH, how much KOH is necessary, 20 gr or 300 gr? at the otherhand if i add certain KOH to the all water in the tank, lets say the current I1, and if i add same amount KOH with a little water to the cell, and then adding all rest water to tank, lets say current I2.. why are these currents always diffrent?

Mikes response to #1: What type of water are you working with? Regular tap water has more than enough salts and minerals in it to make IT conductive. Sodium hydroxide ( KOH ), I PERSONALLY WOULD NOT USE, BECAUSE OF THE HAZARDS ASSOCIATED WITH IT-RUINED CLOTHS, ALKALI BURNS, BLINDNESS, ETC. EXPERIMENT FIRST WITH TAP WATER ONLY. IF YOU HAVE TO GO AND USE LYE ( KOH), THEN THE PERCENTAGE SHOULD BE BASED ON VOLUME OF WATER OR BETTER YET pH VALUE, THE WEAKER THE BETTER, IN CASE YOU HAVE A EXPLOSION.

VICTORS QUESTION
2-if KOH is nonvolatile in the electrolysis process, why does current decrease when i add water to tank (when water in the tank is reduced)


MIKES RESPONSE TO QUESTION 2

CLEAN PURE WATER IS RESISTIVE ( NON-CONDUCTIVE).
BY ADDING WATER, THAT HAS LOWER SALTS THAN YOUR EXISTING ELECTROLYTE SOLUTION ( H2O + KOH) YOUR INCREASING THE RESISTANCE OF THE ELECTROLYTE SOLUTION, BY DILUTION, THUS THE CURRENT FLOW WILL DECREASE. I BELIEVE YOUR CONFUSING VOLATILITY WITH CONDUCTIVITY, APPLES AND ORANGES, IF YOU GET MY DRIFT. STUDY OHM'S LAW, AND YOU WILL SEE WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.

VICTORS QUESTION
3-if i use 12 volt straight DC as a power suply, do i produce only parahydrogen, or mixture para and ortho? if is it mixture, what are the rates?

Mikes response to question 3
HYDROGEN MOLECULES ARE A MIXTURE OF PARA AND ORTHO HYDROGEN MOLECULES. You are not creating them by the separation process. You get both types, as they exist in nature. Room temperature hydrogen gas contains 25% para and 75% ortho hydrogen. The equilibrium ratio of orthohydrogen to parahydrogen depends on temperature, but since the ortho form is an excited state and has a higher energy than the para form, it is unstable and cannot be purified.
At very low temperatures, the equilibrium state is composed almost exclusively of the para form.

Victors question
4-if i use a PWM as a power suply, do i produce 75% orthohydrogen and 25% parahydrogen?

Mikes response to Question 4

Again, PWM IS ONLY TURNING THE CELL ON AND OFF A PERCENTAGE OF THE TIME, THAT IS ALL IT DOES. See response to question 3 again if need be.

victors question
5-is HHO energy produced by a PWM greater 2.5-3 times than produced by a straight DC?


Mikes response to question 5

Again the separation method does not dictate "energy levels" as you call them. your not separating para or ortho hydrogen, that is not what electrolysis does, nor is having a 12 vdc source that runs the cell 100% or a fraction there of, of on time ( ie: pulse width modulation), will it produce one or the other types of hydrogen. You get both and you cannot separate them.

My thoughts to Victor:

Study as much as you can about the classical structure of the Hydrogen atom and its molecular structure. Study about the various types of methodologies used in the separation of water into its key elements ( electro-chemistry). Understand that much of the internet is full of miss information and the so called ultra efficient separation process's have yet to be replicated and those that have tried, have failed. Victor, you have to be somewhat cynical, because there are people that will lead you down the wrong path. I am not one of those. I am a classically trained engineer and scientist. I want to help you any way I can. That is why I put the effort into this and you tonight. Good Luck and God bless and keep you safe.
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